Burnout

We tackle the critical issue of burnout and how leaders can identify, prevent, and manage it effectively within their teams. We begin by exploring the difference between good stress, which can be motivating, and bad stress, which can lead to burnout. The conversation delves into how stress can sometimes drive individuals to be more diligent and focused, often without realizing they're running low on energy until it’s too late.

We discuss the importance of managing stress not only for yourself but also for your team, emphasizing the need to respect the sanctity of time away from work. The episode also covers practical approaches for leaders who are concerned about an employee's well-being and how to address those concerns thoughtfully and effectively.

Finally, we highlight the importance of having a solid plan in place for stress management, including regular check-ins with your team, being candid about the need for breaks, and ensuring that both you and your team remain energized and engaged. Remember, what’s good for your team is also good for your mission and your customers.

Transcript

Dr. C.: 0:05

Welcome to leadership dissected, where we examine the details of leadership strategy, workplace culture and decision making through the lens of behavioral science. I'm Dr C and

Dr. D.: 0:16

I'm dr d. With our decades of leadership experience and PhDs in business psychology, we dig into the latest research trends and practical strategies to help you survive at work without losing your mind.

Dr. C.: 0:28

Today, we dissect the critical topic of burnout, how leaders can effectively manage it within their teams. We explore the difference between good stress and bad stress, and how stress can sometimes act as a motivator for individuals, pushing them to be extra diligent. We discuss the phenomenon of often not realizing when we're running low on energy or becoming overly stressed. We

Dr. D.: 0:49

highlight the importance of managing your own and your team stress, respecting the sanctity of time away and the best approaches to take when you're concerned about someone's well being. We provide practical strategies to identify, prevent and address burnout, ensuring a healthier, more productive work environment for everyone. So let's cut into this topic. Dr c, what is burnout, and what are the symptoms? Burnout

Dr. C.: 1:13

is state of physical, emotional and mental exhaustion, often caused by prolonged stress. If we're going to break down the symptoms. You can break it down into four categories. First set of categories are those physical signs that can be chronic fatigue, trouble sleeping. Sometimes they into insomnia. Often people who are encountering a lot of stress a lot of into starting to get those symptoms of burnout also get sick more often. So there's a physical effect, including getting headaches, sometimes feeling feeling muscle pain, definitely some changes in appetite, changes in sleep habits, and overall, just physical well being, you also have emotional signs. Now, those emotional signs really vary to person to person, but there can be some detachment, loss of motivation. Can start growing a negative outlook. Often there's a decrease in satisfaction and an increase in irritability. And when people are really burned out, they start taking it out on the people around them. And it's not even that they're doing it to be malicious, just you're at that end. There's also mental signs of burnout. Often they look like challenges or difficulty with concentration, this feeling of being overwhelmed, an inability to relax. Also it affects our creativity and our productivity. You just don't have that focus. There's also some behavioral signs that we encounter, person can start to become withdrawn, may start to procrastinate more, may turn to some negative coping skills to deal with the stress. So there's a lot of different symptoms that we often overlook and associate this with just being an employee, living life stress.

Dr. D.: 2:58

I heard it affects you, physically, mentally, emotionally and behaviorally. That covers everything about being a human so as I think about stress, stress can be good. There is good stress. It's called eustress, E, U, S, T, R, E, S, S, and this is the stress that you feel when you're feeling competitive and encouraged and motivated. It's bad stress, the distress that makes somebody feel overwhelmed. When someone says they're stressed out, they're usually talking about distress. The challenge in a work environment or working with other people is that some stress is good if there is a complete lack of stress, there's usually very little motivation to get things done, to create momentum around the work that needs to happen. Some stress is necessary. The challenge is that most people working today, particularly in leadership, have such a constant amount of stress. It's very difficult to recognize the difference between that tipping point from good stress to bad stress. People walk into burnout without even realizing that they're in a burnout frame of mind, physicality, mentality, emotionality,

Dr. C.: 4:18

absolutely and I think with certain industries, we see these higher prevalence of burnout. Healthcare field has a very high prevalence of burnout, coming from a lot of experience working in healthcare that good stress that you stress often comes up because there's a lot of adrenaline. You think about someone who works in an emergency room, it's a constant Go, go, go, because the reality is, there's someone's life on the line, and I like to say that there's sometimes a challenge with the come down with decompressing after high levels of stress, both good stress and bad stress, and people organizations often have a hard time providing those. Rules recognition of the actual impact that stress is happy. So it requires us to kind of take this step back and understand that the extremes of both good stress and bad stress can have a physical impact on the person. Often, when people are stressed, blood pressure goes up. They may have more drowning going they may have more physical signs of being stressed, whether it's good or bad. And I like to equate it to if you have too much caffeine or sugar, you're really wired, you're really up there, and then you have the crash. No, think about a little kid when they have way too much sugar, they're all over the place. Their body is in this stress mode, and then once that stimuli dies down, and they have to crash. And I think often when it comes to stress, we don't realize that that come down is can be detrimental to us. And I think about my own experience with burnout, I've had burnout in the past, and it's definitely a feeling that we say, we call it burnout, but there's so many different symptoms, and it manifests in so many different ways with people. My own experience, it was very much those feelings of being overwhelmed in the defense mechanism or the way that I coped with it was to start to get withdrawn, and often it meant withdrawing from the people around me, or withdrawing from the work that I'm doing, which in turn creates more stress, because now you're behind, and you're having these this emotional reaction when it comes to the stress on relationships. So I think often, when it comes to burnout, we say the word we can say to symptoms, but people are going to react in different ways, and the people around us will react in different ways too.

Dr. D.: 6:35

You brought up adrenaline, there's also norepinephrine, CRH and cortisol, these are all chemicals that are created that have a physical effect on your body. You can't control it necessarily. You can build resilience around stress and become more comfortable with stress and be more comfortable managing your emotions and your behaviors. But everybody reacts differently. I react very differently than Dr C. Of course, I've experienced burnout myself from time to time. I tend to recover fairly quickly from burnout myself, but with stress, another coping mechanism is to layer on more stress, so a busy executive who is in a stressful environment will double down on the challenges, dig in harder, work harder, and put in more hours to try to overcome those feelings of stress, to try to get ahead of whatever that challenge is, or whatever those problems are that you're facing within your business environment or in your personal environment. And so I tend to ignore the signs of stress, jump in a bit deeper and let those mind altering chemicals that are created by yourself to drive forward more until the problem resolves itself. The challenge is, the problem usually never resolves itself. There's always more stress behind the stress that you're facing. Yeah,

Dr. C.: 8:01

and you bring up this, this good point about how stress can ebb and flow. When we think about stress, we don't always look if it's episodic stress, meaning that this is stress for the moment. This is stress because there's been a change, something's happened that is increasing your stress level. But then there's also chronic stress, which means that it feels like it's coming day by day, in waves. There is no break behind it. So depending on what type of stress you're encountering, your body's going to react to that, your brain's going to react to that. You bring up the different hormones, the different neurotransmitters that are associated with stress. Reality is, stress is very much activating your fighter flight. You're either going to shut down and curl up into a little ball, you're going to try to run away from the stress, or you're going to fight the stress. And sometimes we think, well, fighting stress is the best solution. Gotta pick and choose your battles. There are times where it's probably better to get away from that stressor and to try to bite the stressor and it becoming more combative, it may be okay go ahead and wrap yourself up in a blanket, sit on your couch and veg out to avoid distress, because you have to be mentally prepared to actually engage in that stress for it not to become so detrimental to your body. With that being said, with all the different neurotransmitters and hormones that are released during a stressful period. What's also released, and this comes from our relationships, by being around people by interactions, is acetylcholine or hug hormone. Often, we need to be surrounded by people to deal with stress. We need to get that support challenges. Not everyone recognizes those signs of burnout, especially when it comes into the workplace, when it comes to our leaders actually recognizing what is stress, what is going to lead us to burnout within ourselves or even within our teams?

Dr. D.: 9:51

It's such a good point that the people around you can help you alleviate your stress. But when you're really stressed and you're starting to feel burned out. You're probably not somebody that most people want to be around. You're irritable, may withdraw, you may double down on your source of stress to try to overcompensate. There are a lot of reasons why you might not be the best person to be around, or if you notice a change in somebody else and they're under a lot of stress, whether you realize they're under a lot of stress or not. If they're withdrawing or they are more difficult to be around, you're seeing a different side of them than you're used to. Then withdrawing from them is not necessarily the right idea. When you see somebody who is pulling away, give them some space, but don't withdraw from them. If they're withdrawing from you, be there for them. Let them know that they have a path of somebody to talk to. We talked about self motivation, how stress can drive people, but there is a danger of being over focused and being so focused on the work that you do, and I see this in leaders and in organizations, that over focus is viewed as a good thing. Being highly focused and working through the stress, or working through whatever is happening at the business is usually considered a good thing. But I don't think most organizations measure the effect of burnout. They don't look at the healthcare costs that burnout is costing them. What are some metrics that organizations can use to pinpoint teams or areas where burnout could present risk?

Dr. C.: 11:29

Yeah, there's definitely some areas where you can keep an eye on to really see if there is increased burnout among team members. Very first one that comes to mind is attendance. People who are overly stressed, potentially burned out, tend to be sicker more often, either because physically, they're getting sick as they're stressing their body out. And when you're stressed out, your immune system also gets suppressed, or they're taking days off to avoid the stress that they may be encountering at work, which often leads to more stressed because now you're a day behind. But that's a good metric to start keeping a track of if you see a pattern of attendance changes, in addition to that, you can look at productivity. Productivity is going to be a good sign. If people are stressed, are burned out, you'll often see either people working increased number of hours just to keep up with the work. You may see people falling behind on projects, falling behind on deadlines. You also will see employee relation issues, as we talked about earlier, one of the signs of being overly stressed, you have some behavioral changes, often that leads to irritability, lashing out other team members, or you may encounter people who are bringing some of those maladaptive coping mechanisms into the workplace actually affecting their performance. Matter of fact, I think one of the best ways for leaders to find out if their team members are doing okay or if they're high level stress or high levels of burnout is to actually have a conversation as, how are you feeling? Be honest and realistic. How's your stress level today on a scale of one to 10, how was your negative stress this week? It gives us a good insight on people's perceptions of their stress.

Dr. D.: 13:15

I'm going to go back to a conversation that we had right here just a couple weeks ago, which is, are you happy? As part of those seven questions, you can get a lot about a person's state of mind by that very powerful question, are you happy? Once you've built up that level of trust, and you work through those seven questions with somebody, you'll be able to tell if they're stressed out. I agree with the absenteeism too many organizations, they measure absenteeism because they view it as lost productivity. But what they don't measure is over focus and over prescription of labor. They're not looking at email metrics to see if people are emailing from five in the morning until 10 o'clock at night. They're not looking at those metrics to say, are employees actually disengaging from work when they are not at work, or if they're at work from five in the morning until 10 at night? What's going on? Because something is not effective. There another metric that we talked about previously is, what are PTO balances? Are people building up excessive PTO balances, are they taking the time off that they've earned? Because anyone who is carrying an excessive PTO balance is at risk of burnout and is at risk of leaving so I

Dr. C.: 14:32

like how you bring up I like how you bring up this idea of a lot of organizations without trying encourage people to really go above and beyond to the point where a person can earn themselves out. And I like to use the analogy of a shooting star often, especially when you're early on in your career, or trying to grow your career. We refer to people as shooting stars because they're doing a lot of work. They're taking on extra responsibility. They are those people who are working on their vacation. Working after hours. Here's the funny thing about shooting stars. Shooting stars burn out. And I think for a lot of organizations, it's breaking this habit, this habit that has grown over the years, that your productivity is your only worth if you're not answering those emails at 10 o'clock at night on a Saturday and you don't care about the company, you don't care about the work. And I think for a lot of organizations, this is becoming a maladaptive behavior, because it's kind of holding a carrot in front of people that here's the carrot that you want to reach promotion, more money, more recognition. And we do everything we can to try to reach that carrot, not realizing that if we actually pause to see the actual impact of us trying to chase all day, we'll realize that that's leading to a lot of burnout. Looking at this, there's a different viewpoints as we look at different generations of workers, I think one of the chief complaints that I hear from from a lot of leaders, is my new employees want more days off. They want to stop working at IPM when it's their another shift and their day. I think there's a greater recognition from people entering the workforce that there needs to be a balance, that there needs to be some self care. There's a want to be connected to the work, to connect it to the purpose what they're doing as a way to help reduce stress, or at least that negative stress or distress, because we're more willing to work towards something we care about, something that fills us than the things that we feel aren't going to have a true impact or their own individual lives. Purpose

Dr. D.: 16:33

is the great motivator. If you can feel connected to a purpose, you will give every ounce to fulfill that purpose. So even a purpose driven motivation has to be monitored and has to be tempered, because I know that when I'm really excited about something, I'm working hard on something, I will put as many hours and I won't stop until it gets to where I feel like I've I've achieved a goal. Now in business, the goal is never achieved. There is never an end to what you're trying to deliver. You are trying to grow scale your business. You're trying to delight your customers. You're trying to keep your team and your employees motivated and happy. You're trying to improve on technology. The goal is never reached. So people who are exceptionally motivated by their purpose can overdo it. But there is also a social contract, and this is being born out generationally in the workforce today, in that some employees believe as long as they fulfill the social contract, the contract that I will do the work, the job that you're paying me to do, but that's all I'm going to do. It's a very different mentality. I agree with that idea that an organization has to hire the right amount of people to get the amount of work done that's expected. I also recognize that there are some people who are going to go above and beyond and put in more than their social contract has been built for there are people who will work more hours and do more because work is their hobby, or it's their passion, or it is the thing that gives them a sense of fulfillment. That is not everybody. But I also equate this to the idea that in business, you have a contract with another organization, organization to organization. You don't give a bunch of free extras. You live up to the terms of the contract, and you don't deliver necessarily more, because that's not profitable for you. And I think to your point, employees who are newer in the workforce are living to their social contract, and they're doing it to prevent burnout.

Dr. C.: 18:41

Part of that is there's a greater recognition now that burnout is real. In different cultures, different organizations are going to take different views on, how do we support and manage people's stress to prevent burnout? Now, when it comes to managing stress, important to identify what's causing it. In psychology, there's this term called locus of control. The locus of control is your viewpoint on whether things happen to me or things happen because of me. So we have an external locus of control, meaning things that happen happen to me, which separates the control over it, meaning I didn't get that promotion because my supervisor doesn't like, or better, example, I was late to work because there was a lot of traffic. Now, an internal locus of control is really looking at things that happen happen because of me. So it could be I didn't get the promotion because I have all these deficiencies, or I was late because, I'm going to give you a laundry list of different reasons why I was like excluding any external factors. Now, our viewpoints on this control influences how we deal with stress and how we handle stress if we internalize stress that is completely out of our control, and one of the biggest lessons I learned growing up and in my professional life, if your stress is a. Attribute it to someone else's behavior, you're going to drive yourself crazy, because the reality is, you cannot control that person's behavior. You cannot change a person that creates some stress when we think that I need to control everything around me. And what's funny is the opposite end is when you go to the extreme of I am out of control of everything, the stress now becomes I'm stressed because I'm powerless, but we have the opportunity. And here's the interesting part of about stress, we get to control what actually stresses us. We often don't think about that that how much control we truly have, because stress is a lot of times attributed as a feeling behavior. But true stress is our reaction to external stimuli, whether it's the people around us, work that we have in front of us, it can be something completely out of our control. I think it's important when we start to talk about, how do we manage stress, First understand you cannot control your team members reactions. You cannot control the whole organization's reaction. You have control over your own personal reactions. Now, as leaders, we have a great opportunity to actually influence how people react to stress, and what are those things that may cause stress and be proactive about it. I

Dr. D.: 21:10

love the idea of locus of control because it does give a framework for evaluating where is the stress coming from. Is this something that I can control and influence, or is this something that I cannot control or influence? Then you can decide what to do about it. And I think this is where people fall down. There are externalities, things that are far outside of our control, that can affect us for a very long time, a sick family member, death of a loved one, financial challenges, there are a lot of things that are outside of your control that cause stress. And cause stress duly when you recognize those things are outside of your control, the question is, what do you do with that? Do you get help? Do you find support? What is your action? What activities do you take to work on those things? Now there are prolonged, intense stressors on people's lives. If you are feeling stressed for those reasons and you do nothing about it, then you have not taken control. You can't change the circumstance. You can't change the grief or the sadness or whatever the underlying creation of stress is, but you can get help. You can talk to a mental health professional, you can talk to your doctor. You can let the folks in Human Resources know what's going on, so that they can provide some resources or help capacity to deal with that stress. It doesn't change the underlying stressor. Now there are stresses at work as well, and one of the questions that you have to ask yourself is, am I a cause of stress? Am I creating stress on other people around me? Are my actions, my behaviors, my over focus? Is this causing stress on other people? Is my responding to email at 10 o'clock at night, causing somebody else to feel like they need to take time out of their evening to respond to an email, or if they wake up to a bunch of email from me. Is that creating stress on them in the morning? Am I actually pushing the send button at 8am or am I pushing the send button at 10pm when people are stressed out? One of your favorite topics, Dr C, when someone takes that external locus of control and tries to make it an internal locus of control, when a stress leader becomes a micromanager, when they try to control the situation around them by trying to over exert their influence on other people, because they're stressed out themselves, and they think that the only way to resolve a problem is to try to control the problem.

Dr. C.: 23:47

I think that's important for any leader to recognize. Is often we set expectations, but we don't role model those expectations. Is very much as I say, not as I do, and I'll be your first event I have been guilty of that. I'm a very much a proponent of team members taking their time off, taking time to de stress themselves, while I don't model the behavior all the time, as you said earlier, sometimes you have those team members with high level, high number of PTO. I'm often one of those people, but I have a recognition, and I think that's really important, is you have to be able to recognize, here's my limits, here's what may stress me and still have a plan in place to reduce that stress now, as a leader and as an individual, one of those factors that plays into a get burned out or not, our emotional intelligence, because not only is it helping us read the room, it is helping us understand our own reactions, our own emotions, our own feelings. When it comes to stress, studies show people spent time to develop their emotional intelligence actually become a little bit more resilient to burnout because they're able to regulate their own emotions. Understand their reactions contribute to that feeling of stress the

Dr. D.: 24:58

most powerful. Weapon against burnout is knowing yourself, understanding how you react to stress. When you are feeling overwhelmed by stress. What do you do? Are you a withdrawer? Are you a fleeer? Or are you a dig in harder roll on? Are you a fighter? Neither of those actions are wrong. It's just recognizing what's your style. Do you get irritable? Do you take it out on people? Or do you work harder to try to overcome whatever that stress is? Or do you step away and withdraw from people? Recognizing your own symptoms is the greatest weapon, because once you do that, you can have an honest conversation with somebody and say, I'm feeling very stressed out. I think I'm on the brink of burnout. I need to take some time off, or I need some help, or I need to talk to somebody. I need to get in touch with our EAP program, whatever that might be. It gives you the opportunity to raise your hand and say, I'm recognizing I'm in a precarious spot, and I need to get some help, absolutely.

Dr. C.: 25:58

And as leaders, we need to encourage that behavior. You have to encourage people taking that time to have that recognition of what those symptoms are. Sometimes people don't realize that those symptoms are actually occurring, because we're not always as introspective as we like. We need that second person observer to let us know, like, here's how you're showing up, here's what I'm seeing as a leader, you may say, here's what concerns me. And it's not about immediately jumping to a person's productivity, ultimately taking care of a human being. So we have to take steps to actually take care of ourselves, take care of other people. One of the biggest steps that person can take is actually taking breaks, and not doing those. I'm gonna work through my lunch. I'm gonna work through my break, actually taking true breaks. Now what's going to be important for that leaders need to respect the sanctity of being away, time away, seeing often a person's on vacation, yet they're getting flooded with emails, flooded with messages, and often there's an expectation to reply, or for a person who's on vacation or time off, there's an expectation that if they're messaging me, then that means that they need me, and that hyper ownership, internal locus control means I needed I need to respond some organizations just that's their culture, that you're going to be a lame that burns bright, burns out quick. So it's important that we set these healthy boundaries around our work. As leaders, we have to encourage setting these healthy boundaries, and that can look like clear communication guidelines of what the expectations are of during work hours, outside of work hours, and understanding that people need to have this personal time to decompress or to do activities that actually encourage positive mindset. Whereas one of my good friends says you got to do the things that fill your cup, because an empty cup. Can't give anything. You also have to be willing to provide assistance when a person is in that midst of a struggle. That that assistance can be, you know, an ear to hear amount it can be evaluating. Does a workload actually make sense, or is there something going on that we can look at?

Dr. D.: 27:56

My son was born at four o'clock in the morning on a Tuesday, and I sent the email to the folks that I was working with, saying, Hey, I'm out of the office. My son was born. He's healthy. Everybody knew. I got a call at 930 that morning. Dr D, we really need you to come in. Important person in the company needs your help with something said, Well, you know, my son was just born hours ago. I don't think I can leave. No, I'm not going to come in, and that cost me a tremendous amount of stress. How can I make this work? How can I be here and help solve whatever crisis of the moment? And I realized that one, because of my mental gymnastics, try to do both, which there was one clear priority, I had to change some things about the way that I was thinking about the world. And the first thing that I thought is, why was I getting called mere hours after my child being born, to come into work for some crisis that I'm sure somebody else would have been able to support or solve? And that's when I realized that's not the place for me, and shame on those leaders, knowing my situation very clearly and still deciding to call me and put me in that situation where I had to say no. When I think about an organization whose values were work life balance, making that phone call it undercut the values of that organization so deeply that I never recovered from it. When I think about an organization saying that stress and burnout is something that needs to be fought against, something that needs to be monitored, work life balance is something that is important. Family is important. Then that means that an organization has to hold people accountable to working too much as they do to people who work too little, that they need to put the same level of focus on over productivity as they do on under productivity as I think about this, and respecting time off and being candid, these are all important things that an organization has to consider when making a serious commitment to resolve. Burnout. You can't have it both ways. And say, we want to have work life balance. We want to prevent burnout, but we're going to turn a blind eye to excessive productivity, to people that work from five in the morning until 10 o'clock at night. I think you

Dr. C.: 30:13

bring up a great point. The way I frame it is, for a lot of organizations, they need to balance the optics versus the actions that they're taking. If the optics is, hey, we're going to create work life balance. We're going to take care of people, you know, dr d, your son was just born. So, you know, we're going to be respectful of that. That's one thing. But the reality is, the actions are not aligning with what they're presenting, and that, in turn, creates more burnout when you feel you can't trust your organization their word to create this balance or this space for you to do the things that are important to you? Yeah, it's gonna create additional stress that ultimately is gonna lead to burnout most of the time. Source of a lot of our burnout is other people making decisions. And again, that comes back to our feeling that we have control or lack of control. That's what really is creating that stress. Now if we're thinking about, how are we going to take care of ourselves, what are we going to do for ourselves? What are we going to do for our team members to help reduce burnout, build a resilience against burnout? Well, the very first thing is you got to put a plan together, a plan of what are the right questions to ask, and also, what are the what are the resources, supports that we can give individuals? Often, this plan has to be led by a little bit of data understanding where people's heads are at. That can be through engagement surveys. That can be through looking at productivity numbers, looking at absences, looking at PTO balances. We have a lot of different resources, and as leaders, we have to create that time to check in and ask some of these candid questions of stress, are you feeling? Are you happy? What support do you actually need?

Dr. D.: 31:43

One of the challenges as well, we can see people approaching burnout, but might not feel empowered to actually say something. Might not feel empowered to say, I'm worried about you. I care about your well being you seem stressed. How can I help? Dr C, how do you think someone can set up within a team the expectation that it's okay to have those conversations create a shorthand for let's have a conversation about stress and burnout. First thing

Dr. C.: 32:11

for a leader to do is you're a little vulnerable. Share their experience with stress. Share their experience with burnout. People get stressed. People get burned out, and it's it helps people understand that you're human too. So being able to have that vulnerability and being able to share like, here's my experience. I'm bridging this conversation because I'm concerned, because I'm seeing some of the same symptoms in you that I experienced. It can just be general concern also with any leader, I hope is, is that you have team members that you actually care about that's not 100% of time, and that might actually be the source of stress you're you have people that you care about, not just on a professional level, not just on a transactional level, care for them as a human being. So as a leader, we got to take that step back, and we have to model the behavior. I think that's probably one of most important things a leader can do model the positive behaviors that help reduce burnout, which also means, as a leader, if you're experiencing those high levels of stress, you're experiencing those symptoms of burnout, to actually get help yourself, because what ends up happening is, if you're stressed out, team's going to be stressed out. We're burned out. Team's going to start burning out

Dr. D.: 33:19

the conversations that you have around the seven questions, you should be looking for signs of burnout, and if you're not, if you haven't listened to that episode on the seven questions, they really are a great way to stay engaged and thoughtfully get to the bottom of how someone is feeling and performing within the day, the week, the month. You also have to look at your culture. Is your culture really aligned with this idea of preventing burnout, or is it productivity at all costs? There are a lot of metrics that you can use, absenteeism, email habits, sentiment questions, pulse survey questions, engagement questions, the seven questions that you might ask during one on ones, PTO, balances, that's a great way of identifying hotspots where people may be overworked and thinking through and having a good inventory of what changes an organization and a team is going through. Have there been leadership changes? Have there been understaffing or new hires? Are there systems changes? Are there process changes? All of these also contribute to stress. So if you think about people's work performance, absenteeism, their general sentiment, PTO, the frequency of magnitude of change, those are all good indicators of understanding where a team's head might be at, where individuals might be at on the burnout scale, and giving leaders the opportunity to live their values and make sure that what they're saying about burnout and what they're saying about stress and work life balance actually match the actions Absolutely.

Dr. C.: 34:47

And I think any actions you do take, you have to be authentic about it. You have to provide an support, authentic feedback, and not draw assumptions of why certain things are happening, because that in turn. Can create more stress and create misalignment on how we're actually supporting people now, really as a leader, as an individual. If we want to address burnout, there's a couple of steps we can take to help prevent it, help mitigate the risk of burnout. Very first thing, yeah, take time for yourself. Gotta take breaks. You gotta take vacations. Utilize your PTO. They tell my team members, if you're that worried about the work, you have the budget to leave the country, you have geofencing. You can't check your email. I can't message your team to you'll be good as a leader. I'm very respectful of those boundaries, which, in turn, another, another step to address stress and burnout is to actually set those healthy boundaries. Be clear about your working hours. Establish those clear boundaries between personal time work time. What activities I do with a lot of teams is identifying people's calendars. Like to call it sacred time, and that can be within person's calendar. Just outlining this is a time that I'm spending with my family. This is the time that I'm spending with those activities that fulfill me. Also want to make sure that you don't go it alone, because, again, when the symptoms of burnout is isolation, you have to be willing to seek support, or at least except when someone reaches out to provide support. You also have to practice some self care, or those activities that fill your cup and and often, we often have to promote activities that not only support your your mental well being, but also your physical well being, exercise, meditation, hobbies, I know for you, dr d, you're a big runner, getting that that couple miles in with the runner's eye just to clear your head goes A long way with reducing reducing burnout and stress. And finally, both leaders and team members having the conversation is the workload that a person has fit right it's assessing and adjusting that workload and the responsibilities to help prevent someone from feeling overwhelmed. What I often tell people is, as a team member, as a leader, don't let yourself suffer in silence. That's what's going to lead to burnout. That's going to lead to that increased stress. Does it mean march into someone's office and go, you got you gave me too much work? No, it's having a candid conversation. Of here is what's becoming excessive. The other phrase I use often is, and this is a big source of stress for people, is understanding there are times when you need to say no, an inability to say no can often lead to more stress, because you're now taking on where I have old people, someone's or planning is not my emergency.

Dr. D.: 37:33

On that wisdom. I don't know how we could top it. I think we're done here. Let's close it up. I'm Dr D

Dr. C.: 37:39

and I'm Dr C, and we'll keep dissecting Leadership. Your time at work looks a little less you